Experts Speak
Experts Speak

Episode · 2 years ago

Episode 7: Market the Write Way with Copywriting Expert Tom Trush

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Welcome to the Experts Speak Podcast hosted by Brand Strategist, Michael DeLon!

On this episode, meet Copywriting expert and author, Tom Trush of Write Way Solutions. He's the author of multiple books including his latest, Escape the Expected. Tom shares easy to follow tips on getting started with professional copywriting for you business. Tune in for all the details on mastering the messaging for your marketing goals.  

You can find Tom online at https://writewaysolutions.com/.

Don't forget to visit us at www.PositioningExperts.net to learn more.  

Welcome to the experts speak podcast with Michael de Lan. Each episode features a leading expert who shares helpful insights, practical tips and memorable stories that will inspire you, educate you and help you enjoy more success, freedom and purpose in your life. For the next few minutes, enjoy listening to experts speak with Michael de Lan and welcome to a another episode of experts speak on Michael Lawn. And today I'm talking with a dear friend of mine, Tom Trush. Tom Is the author of three books, the most recent is escape the expected, and he's a prolific copywriter, and that's why I wanted him to be on the the program today. So, Tom, welcome to expert speak. Thank you, my Gu I appreciate you having me. Well, you're welcome. It's going to be a fun conversation. It's been a few months since we've been together, but I wanted to make sure that we got a chance to talk to you about copywriting because you what you do is so important for small business owners. But before we get into the deep content and how you help people and how people can use your skills and copywriting and reading your books, tell us a little bit about you. Your company and how in the world did you become a copywriter? Okay, yeah, yeah, so I'll pack it up a little bit. I mean. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm a copywritor, which just basically means that you're I write the messaging that people, that companies use in their marketing materials. That could be for website content, email campaigns, direct mail, all that kind of stuff, all designed to get people to take some type of action, and sometimes that action is a sale, sometimes, I mean, but it doesn't always have to be a sale. I can be done to create relationships and just to get people to raise their hand to show that they're interested in in what it is that you offer. And the way that I got into it. As I was telling before we started recording, it's appropriate for this podcast because it it involves a book and how I got into this business, because the reality is, back in college I had no idea that what I'm doing right now is even possible. And in college I worked at a library...

...and it wasn't the library on campus, it was a city library. I worked at two of them actually, and what was great is that you'd get the the you get access to the newest books being in the library and it wasn't always busy and so you had time to work. But it just gave me like good insight into one I don't know that's insight, but just that that craving to learn when you're around all those books. It just it's it was just a great place to work and and so there was one day in particular, and this was actually a little bit after I had left the library. I left the library to go into something related to my degree, which was in journalism, but I went back to the library just to see some friends. And then you describe some books. So this was in two thousand and one. I went into the business section. I knew the business section. That was my favorite place to go, and I saw a book that grabbed my attention. It was called the well fed writer by Peter Bauermann and I still have the book today. Again, this was two thousand and one. Then I grabbed that book and I read it and in that book it talked about it was the way it was labeled in the book was commercial writer. The idea behind it was it was people who wrote for businesses and basically were writing businesses marketing materials and that these businesses had budgets set aside for these people that they would hire to write the marketing materials. Now, I came from the journalism world where you get you're used to getting paid, you know, a few bucks to write an article here, there or and it would be some crazy deadlines, which I never enjoyed because it was like the deadline took priority over the quality of the work. So if you had to get something in under deadline, you know, it didn't matter if you didn't get that source that you needed, you had to just get it in. You'd figure out and I didn't like that. I liked the more in depth and,...

...like I said, it's beginning with the library. It really like open this idea of learning, and that's what I liked about is like going into a business, learning about the business, learning about the businesses prospects and what are their problems and how we can write copy that targets those problems. And so that book opened up my eyes. I was like commercial writing, holy smokes, what am I doing in this journalism world? Because at the time I was working at a magazine writing articles covering sports, which I thought that's what I wanted to do. But this commercial writing world thing. Man. I remember going online and looking and sure enough there are job postings like for freelance writers and stuff. I was like, man, this is it, this is what I'm going to do. Now, from reading that book to when I went out on my own was a little bit of time. I, like I said, two thousand and one, read the book, started a little side Gig in two thousand and one and then left my full time position that at the time was an editor newswire, at editor and newsroom supervisor at a newswire service. Left that in two thousand and four and have been on my own ever since. So, yeah, it was one book that just opened my eyes and and I was often run and I was like yes, that's what I want. In that great when you when you find your passion in life and what you're really meant to do. You know, I have the privilege of what I call living my dream, with doing what I'm I think I'm made to do. Sounds like you're doing the exact same thing. This is your third book escape the expected. Right, yes, that's expected. What is that about? So that the subtitle is the secret psychology of selling to today's skeptical consumers. The idea with escape the expected, like all the books have some kind of general theme around them. Now the overall thing like that I like to do with my books. It's basically providing marketing tips. The idea behind escape the expected is in marketing there are certain things...

...that get done from company to company, business to business, and they really it's almost like they copy each other. They're doing the same type of thing. And so as prospects, when we see marketing like we recognize it a subconsciously, we recognize it as a result, many times we just tune it out, we ignore it. So the idea of escape the expected is you have to go beyond what your prospects are expecting. You have to surprise them, and there's some great research has been done where the element of surprise inner and in our minds it has the same effect as drugs, like literally like hardcore drugs, where we just crave more. And so with surprise, like if you think about situations where you've been surprised before, I mean many times it's a pleasant experience. You want more, you like the idea. Now, of course there are negative situations, but when it comes to marketing, if you can look at places where you could surprise your prospects do something that they're not expecting, communicate in a way that they're not expecting, or present information in a way that they're not expecting or deliver in a format that are not expecting. Well, now you start tapping into that. With the mind it's craving more of what you have to offer. So that's where the idea of escape the expected, it's like that's brought to surprise, the element of surprise the marketing dude. I love that. What comes to my mind is this is totally off subject, but my youngest son, who's twenty one, he and I love horror movies and so we watch horror movies and you talk about the the next you know, the next surprise. We're just waiting because we know it's going to come, but we don't know when. And I never thought about that concept, not necessarily that you want to scare your prospects, but the idea of exp of doing something different, unexpected. I walked to my mailbox the other day Tom and in my mailbox was this this big pink envelope that a friend sent me. I pulled it out and there's her pink book right and I thought. Now that's unexpected. Right. Yes, when I saw a big thing like that in my in my mailbox, I had to open it. So that was totally unexpected. Go along with your...

...thing. But that's really, really intriguing, because the other thing that hit me when you were talking is subconsciously we see an ad and we know that's an ad. So I can tune it out. That's I'm not hurting anybody else talking about that aspect. So unpacked that a little bit. And how do you get around that then? How could a business owner look at their marketing and go, Oh, this looks like marketing. What are some of the flags? I guess. Well, so that's that is the thing. So you it's as simple as that. So if you're marketing looks like marketing, sounds like marketing, feels like marketing, that's a true sign. You guys mark get away from that. Yes, yeah, so the most effective marketing often doesn't look like marketing, it doesn't sound like Marki's. So let me give you an example. When I mentioned this at the beginning of the book, and it's it's an idea, like with our kids, and it's not so much now because our mentality is eating a little more healthier, but like when my kids were young, and maybe the same like you mentioned, with your son's twenty one now. If you ask, you know, back when there were kids like for five years old. Yes, kid, where you want to go? Many times are going to say the CODDALD's. They want to go to McDonald's. And if you think about it, remember the happy meal inside of a happy meal. Yes, you're for well, first off you're getting a happy meal, which is something completely different than what you're used to getting at home. The other component is the happy meal always has a prize inside. There was some kind of toy gift. You didn't know what it was. You had to open it up. Same thing, like Cracker Jack. had to open it up. We have to see the surprise. So you have to now apply that to your marketing. So if you're just sending, like you just open that your showed that direct mail piece. If that came. Let's say that. You just open up your mailbox, you see a typical number ten white envelope with the window. You're like, oh great, yeah, you know, it does nothing for you. There's no experience with that. You know, like the pink envelope padded big envelope.

There's an experience there. It's a surprise school. I got to open it, I got to see it's the same thing with like a Fedex box. It comes to your door. Yep, I'M NOT GETTA ignored it. I'm going to open the thing these well, and the the other thing just and it's simple. I got a number ten envelope in the mail yesterday, two days ago, from a local COMP and I do car repairs. They do my car repair stuff. But it was hand addressed and I thought why are they sending me something? So it intrigued me. I opened it up. There's a little thank, you know, for a refer on a coupon. But because it was hand, physically hand address, it caught my attention and it wasn't no, what's this? It's like, Oh, what's this? So that's it could be something. That's simple. Right, right, right. I mean you can even think, how does this carry over to email? So let's say like people sending out their email news letter. There are times where you see it comes in the in your inbox it's exactly the same ere every month or worse yet, they don't even send every month. They are sending on an inconsistent basis, but soon as you see it in your inbox you're like, this is just a news letter. It went out to a bunch of people. You Open Up, it's in a nice template with a logo in you're like, well, you know what's The experiencer? You're getting the same thing over and over again. You know what it is. It's marketing. So you got to get beyond that. You know, even it's something as simple as email. You know what could you how could you send out an email that makes it look a little bit different, that creates a different experience that goes beyond what your prospects are expecting? Yeah, that's real. That's probably important. I'm a big email marketing fan and so I'm always talking to people about how to do email differently than all the other emails we get, because I don't want my emails to look like marketing. I with them to look like personal communications and have fun and bring smiles to people's faces so that when you get an email from me, I hope you go oh, Michael's email and me and you open it, because that's the whole boy of email. Right, right, right. It's because it's unexpected. So let's let's talk a little bit, I guess, About Your Book...

...and about marketing from from a small business perspective. What are some what are some ways people can be at unexpected in their marketing, whether it's email, facebook or things is does it have more to do with the message in the personality of that business owner? Is that what you're talking about her? Give me, give me some ideas to wrap our heads around. How could somebody listen to this? Go Oh, I got it. Well, see, the problem that with most marketing is that people think about especially when it comes to the copy. So what can I put down on this piece of paper? What can I put down on this email that's going to result in me getting a sale? And that's the wrong mentality to have. Really. I encourage people to look at their marketing as a way to have fun. So how can you create the experience for the person on the other end? And you know we've talked about direct me, I mean direct mail is one of the easiest ways to do that, to send little items through the mail. I sent some crazy stuff, apple pies, socks, calculators, you know, all this stuff through the email, because it creates in experience. It's something completely different than what people are expecting. Even with somebody lands on your on your website. There are so many websites that look exactly the same, you know, as their competitors. You see it in the legal industry especial especially. I mean we both you know, know that industry pretty well. Yes, you see that it's just a templated website that design firm created for this attorney and then created the same thing for the another attorney and the the copy, like the home page. It just sounds the same. Everything sounds identical. So this is the Jones, Smith and Newman law firm and we've been in business for x number of years. You know, La, blah, blah. Who Cares? You know it's it's identical stuff. So you know it's natural to just ignore it, when ignore that stuff, because there's no differentiating factory. You've commoditized your marketing exactly, and I want to talk about this a little bit because you're brilliant at this and you're hitting on one...

...of my hot buttons. Then I talked about a lot is is telling that personal story of the business owner and a lot of times, as I talked with clients, they kind of shy away from that and I'm like no, that that needs to be pretty front and center because, especially in the legal field, or really any field, when I get to bond with you. We've always heard to get a know I can trust people. Right, right, how do I get to like and trust you? Besides understanding your story? I like you a lot better now because I know your story Tom of how you got into this as like well, that's fascinating. Common Ground. Talk a little bit about how would, how should somebody weave that in to, let's say, a website? And should that be on the home page or the about US page or both? Or How do you add that personality aspect into what you're doing? Well, I think where you place it depends almost about, almost with the the branding that you're looking to get across. Now I look at branding, not its logos and company names, branding you know more about the feel like. What is somebody feel about your business and and if that's that real personal family approached, then maybe that is something for your home page. If it's more of a secondary if that that that touchy Feeley stuff is more set secondary party business, maybe it goes over to your home page because hers goes over to your about page, because we know the about page. Often time it's going to be the second most visited page on a on a website. So it'll still get visible. I you know, still get visibility. One of the challenge I think that people run into with their story, and you probably see this too, is that they think they have to say have something super elaborate, like it has to be. They hear these stories that the selfhelp gurus have where, you know, it's down on luck, was homeless, living under a park car and apart and you know, and then I jumped in. I've now make and seven figures here. So they think that their story has to be something like that. But like the story I just told you was I walked into a library, I saw a book, the book grab my attention, I read the book and...

...it completely changed the course of my career. There's nothing anybody can go do that any single day and we have. How many people walk into a library every single day? I mean there's nothing truly unique about it, but it's more like it's your personal story and when there's truth behind it, people feel that they can relate to it. It doesn't have to be anything that's super elaborate. And it doesn't, which is fascinating because your story resonates with me because I remember the day that I stood in a book store in a mall. I was probably twenty, and I look down on us all this red covered book and I pulled it up and it was how to master the art of selling by Tom Hopkins. I still have the book. That was a directional change in my life. So one book change the direction of my life. I resonate with that. So now we've taken that next step in building more common ground to go. I really do like this guy. He's a lot like me right, and that's how you start building connections and really building your brand identity with a prospect. Yeah, you're exactly. You're like. You're right, because look what you yeah, look what just happened to us. Very common story, nothing real elaborate, but now you feel you and I you, we have this connection and it happens. You want that same thing to happen with your prospects when they come to your website. So you say something like like your store versus what I mentioned before. Hi, this is the such and such offer and we have a business and such and such years. We're going to fight for your rights. You know, there's no feeling with that, because everyone's say it. But then you get your story in. Okay, now you have those commonalities and you're like, Oh, I like this person, this person went through this or this person likes such and such sports team. Well, right, so do I. I'm gonna go to I want to. I want to talk to that person. Because here's the other thing to think about is Yo society, we naturally look to group ourselves into somebody, to find commonalities with people, and when you can do that with your marketing, then it just creates a real strong connection that helps you stand out from competitors, because immediately there's that that feeling like,...

...okay, this is the right person. I this person is me, you know, I know that person. Yeah, and it's so cool because you know, we all know that. We all make decisions emotion like first. Then we find all their logic and reasons to back up what I want to do. Right. That's why people are driving Tesla's and porches and all that stuff, because a Chevrolet would do just fine, but we want to drive that right. But the same thing with bind decision, whether it's an attorney, financial advisor or a plumber. If I like that guy, I'm going to find reasons to use them, and it's not hard to do, but we make it really complex. Only what about? Oh yes, we have any like simple tips that you've warned over the years that that small business owners could take and say, next time you're writing copy, whether it's website, direct mail, emails, so whatever, here are some things that you need to avoid, I guess, or here's some things you need to do to make that help them escape the unexpected. Well, let me let me just touch on a problem that isn't talked about much and I see it as a huge issue, and that's idea. The idea that in this is going to sound a little bit different coming for me being a copywriter, because it typically with a copywriter, you know copywriter. Most are going to tell you, hey, the words that I the words that you have in your marketing piece are the most important element, and that's just it's not true. The biggest factor that determines response and any type of marketing piece, whether it's your website, whether it's email, whether that's direct mail, is your audience. You have to look to your market or your audience first, then create the copy around the audience, because you could have a super powerful you can have the best marketing copy in the world, send it out to a terrible audience, an audience it isn't a good match for it. It doesn't matter how effective that marketing copy is, it's not going to get a response. So you have to remember the biggest factor is going to be your audience. So you...

...always have to take a step back think about, okay, who are the people that I'm targeting and what are the problems that they're having, like, how how can I position what I offer as a solution to the problems that my ideal prospects have? Now, if we just think about at the time we're recording this, middle of May, think back just the past two two and a half months, many of the problems that in all types of businesses, that the idea, your ideal prospect has, they're different now. You know, their priorities have changed. They're buying for different reasons and we see it's that that money all of a sudden disappears and that there isn't that nobody is buying, it's just the money has changed hands, but also people are buying for different reasons. So now is one of those times where the smart companies they're looking to adjust their messaging because they realize that the priorities for their target prospects they've changed a little bit. And so, I mean that is one of my biggest things that I encourage people to do is don't necessarily, like I said before, sit down to think what can I put in this piece of paper, what can I put in this email to get somebody to buy? Think about your market, think about your audience, identify those problems and pick one. And it's not like you have to stick with that one problem, but if you can match your messaging to one particular problem and speak in a language that your ideal prospect understands and they when they hear it, they're like, Yep, that's when I'm feeling. That's when you create you create that connection. The other thing that you have to do that I encourage people do. I see another issue is that when it comes to marking, and they'll do it once, it's the worst number and marking. We hear that. I think was Dan Kennedy said that, but how often do we see this? They try something one time. Consistency is one of the biggest keys in marking you have to do something consistently. You can't just run a facebook ad one time and then it doesn't get the response. You want say, well, I tried, basically didn't work. You can't just send out...

...a direct mail piece. I I didn't get the response. It didn't work. No, it's not that the mediums don't work, the channels don't work, it's the approach you're taking doesn't work. In true marketing is when you do something, you get back data, you adjust, you do it again. In the most effective marketing will then come in when it starts working well for you. It's when you've made enough adjustments. It's very rare that you're going to step up to home plate the first pitch you see you're going to hit a home run. It just doesn't happen much in marketing. It's a process. Just like in baseball. You know you hit three times out of ten, man, that's your all, your laying all the fame. You got seven failures. It's the same thing in market you're going to have a lot of failures. In Marketing. It's those who stick with it who grab that data. Just like the pitch coming in, you see the pitch like Oh, that wasn't my pitch it, but you got data and now you know what you're looking for and then you just adjust and you do it again. So it's consistency. Is One of those big keys that I see so many business is lacking. Yeah, and and that's huge. I'm glad you mentioned that, because it's consistency and it's also moving from one to the next to the next. They may they may have a marketing budget, their marketing every month, but they do a little bit of Facebook, then they stopped and then go over here. And that's what you're talking about, versus saying now, we're going to do facebook, in this example for a few months to get data, then we're on, go over and either leave that or keep that and add something else and add something else, and you and you really don't need twelve marketing channels. Know I've seen great success with two and three, but you dominate the ones that you have. The other thing I was looking at your book on Amazon and looking through the table of contents and you have trust trilogy part one, which I really love what you say here because it relies to what you just said Tom Instead of marketing, what you want to say give prospects what they need to succeed. And too many times in marketing the focus that if you think of a spotlight, I always think the spotlight is shining on the business owner. And when the turn that around...

...and say no, no, let's shine it on the customer and what did they want to buy from us? Right? Is that what you mean by the yeah, yeah, yeah, you definitely want to shine your spotlight on the prospect and I'm always thinking about, like with marketing, how can you deliver value, because so much marketing, like you said, the spot leg is focused on the business. So the all the marketing does is talk about the business. But if we can switch at spotlight, put it on the prospect and help a process SPEC see some type of result, a lot of times that I'm ready, let's say it's an email out to like my list. In the back of my mind my thought is what can I put in this email that, when applied, when implemented, could deliver a result by tonight? So I want to give people information then if they do something with that information, they're going to see some kind of result, because you just imagine the connection that you create, because what happens is people ultimately they want more of what it is that you're offering. If they see they get a little taste. It's like when you sit down a dinner, get a little appetizer. Who I'm not full, I need the full dinner. They're going to want. We're going to want more. Now that goes back to like the education based marketing and things have changed a little bit. You can't just give, give, give, without asking. I mean, if you want more sales, you've got to make more offers. It's so you do have to weave in your offers, but still deliver value. Look to deliver value up front first, especially when you're dealing with a cold audience. Yes, yeah, yeah, and and I love that. Going back to email, right, I said a daily email. I'm always trying to give value in tips and things, and then my my offer, the way I've started my whole email is usually my offers at the very bottom to email. After I've given the value. You can take it, you can run with it. Oh, by the way, here's a webinarm doing or if you want to schedule a call. But that's usually for me at the bottom because, yes, I need them to do that and I want them to do that. I always want to give them the opportunity, but I want to give the value. How you first yeah, and that's a mistake that I made early on, is I gave too much without asking for anything in return. And...

...it's not that you're, you know, being a doing an aggressive ask. But let's say, you know, eight out your ten emails your you're delivering value and then you may have like a ps that says something effective. Whenever you're ready, here a couple ways I can help you and you give some options. But then occasionally, like maybe two out of those ten emails, maybe their emails that they are just focused on an offer. So it's some shorter email, it's something specific related to the offer and there's not necessarily any advice in there that you know they can take and then apply and get it see a result by tonight, but it's focused more on the offer. But you have a history of delivering value that your audience isn't going to mind in occasional offer if the majority of the time you're delivering something that's helping them in some way, especially if during your marketing you're building that relationship, you're sharing yourself, you're putting that personality in it so that they like you. Everybody, everybody gets it. We're in business, right, we're all in business. We're going to have to make offers and just doing it that way and building those relationships of trust get people to to know, like and trust you. They want to do business with somebody that they like, and that's just one way to emails, one way to do you can do it on social media, you can do it and direct mail, website, you name it. It's all over the place. And we haven't touched on video and how how you weave that into video. But that's just a whole another component that I think people need to be doing more video and doing videos like this as a you know, not not highly produce things, but iphones and just being real, because I want to know who you are if I'm want to trust you. Yeah, and that that's a good thing right now. That's one of the advantages that we have prospects in most situations. They're not expecting some highly produced especially like when it comes to video, it used to be that you need to have a camera crew and have the latest equipment and you have to come across super professional in some office setting, but I think society in general realize is that a lot of the business, and we're seeing this especially right now, a lot of businesses are run our home base businesses. They...

...are there are run from smaller businesses where, you know, Boutique type businesses were it's only one to five and employees, and there's no sense. If I used to think, especially when I first got started, I wanted people to feel like they were working with someone who was bigger than really what I was. It's almost like you're putting on a on a facade, and I don't think that's the case anymore. I think people they like that, they like to do business, you know, on a personal level, and that's when of the advantage that social media has allowed is you learn what people are like and you see like you get insight into their world outside of business and it helps create that connection, those connections that are so important. It's it's given us an advantage with social media. Like social media does get a bad rap, but I mean I love to see people that I that I follow, like what are they doing outside of their work environment, because again, I can relate to it. But maybe if their kids, maybe they're out fishing, maybe they're out shooting baskets, I don't know, you know, whatever it is, but I can relate to that and there's a commonality there that just creates a stronger connection. Yeah, and I think when you get that commonality, that common ground, those connections that you're talking about, that's all wrapped into marketing, even though we don't call it marketing, it really is, because marketings, my definition of marketing, is everything you do to gain and retain a customer, and that would include social media post and hanging out with my kids and sharing my story as as an adoptive dad who did foster care for eight years and one of my daughter's African American and you know, I share that story in every time I share that story Tom People are like Oh, and they just connect with me and then we go on you. I've already crossed the two biggest hurdles. They know me now, they like me. Now it's just going the trust of what I do and can I serve you? Yeah, but it's telling my story and that's, I think, one of the big things that I know you help people do. Talk to me tell us about how can people get a hold of you?...

Obviously your book is on on Amazon, your new book. You've got three of them. So this is your new book called Escape, the unexpectable escape, the expected escape, the expected, by Tom Trush and on it on Amazon. But how else? If somebody's intrigue, they want to find out more about you and in your services, Tom where would they find you? So the easiest way is my website, and the website is right way Solutionscom, and right way is Wrie, you know. So the writing component. So right way SOLUTIONSCOM. That's the easiest place. It's a pretty actually just redid the website. It's super simple. Now. The the the meat of the website is there's a lot of articles on their tips articles. So I mean it kind of goes back to the tips. Articles are part of a tip where I look to repurpose a lot of the marketing that I put out, a lot of the content. You know, that'll be emails also go on to the website into a hole. I mean there's something like three hundred fifty articles on there that people can just it's like a library of Marketing Library that people can go in there and they can search. So that's the easiest way. It's just that that website, right way Solutionscom, awesome. Well, I encourage people to do that. I encourage people to get a copy of your book and to become students of copywriting, but also really students of marketing, because even though I page and hold you into a copywriting place, you're much broader than that, because copywriting is just one aspect of developing and delivering a marketing message and I think, as as many business owners, need to really learn and understand it's broader. It's understanding the target market, target add and you mentioned that, but it's telling your story and doing things that are unexpected to bring delight to your audience in some way, online, offline, and a combination of both. So, Tom Thanks for being here. We may have to come back into another one and talk video, because I know you had some video experience and helping people understand how to do video.

But let me just encourage people to get a copy of your book, Go to Amazon and the pick up Tom's book or go to his website right way Solutionscom, and that's Wurrite, and reach out to Tom, have a conversation with him see how he can help you. But if nothing else, go through the library of articles on his website, and it's like walking into a library. Probably I'm going back to your story right. That is right. Yep, that's the idea. That's awesome. Well, Tom, you're always a great guy to talk to, your wealth of information, and love talking with you and reconnecting and I just want to encourage people to reach out to you. So hope this has been encouraging to you as much as it has been to me. It's always great to be with you, Tom. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate you having me. It was good time. All Right, talk to you latery buddy. Thanks for listening to experts speak with Michael Dulan. If what you've heard today was helpful to you, reach out to our expert guest and see how they can serve you to bring you more success, freedom and purpose in your life.

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